Mikelle says "Well, the council thinks we should tell him the truth about what we are, and negotiate in good faith. Any story we could concoct would be dubious at best and suspicious at worst. Ideally we would like to offer him a small tax once we have some income going, but frankly I am unsure what it will be possibel to negotiate. What do you think?"
MTKnife says "helena, make a civil and canon law roll"
Helena says "Well, he has no income from this land and besides that there are bandits that might steal from his legal subjects."
Helena rolls a die, it comes up... 3
MTKnife says "nope, you don't have any bright ideas"
Helena says "So, if we make sure noone of this bandits steals and pay a _little_ tax, he should be happy..."
Helena says "My greatest worry is, that he will try to make use of your powers somehow."
Helena says "Reading anything about laws available - especially if Maria lets me take a look at his laws - might help..."
Mikelle says "We will make it clear to him that that is not an option, except against supernatural threatas. Against those I would be happy to help."
MTKnife says "does anyone remember what Maria looks like?"
Helena says "Oh, by the way... What _exactly_ does your laws forbid?"
MTKnife says "the covneant doens't havea law book at hte moment"
Ulrich says "Fragile Beauty. The kind any man would like to help."
Mikelle says "We may not use magic to interfere in the affairs of nobles and the church, and thus raise their anger against us."
MTKnife says "okay :)"
Helena will try to be most charming to this Lord... :)
Mikelle says "We're ready Ithink. We head up towards the castle."
Helena says "Hmm... It might be a nice thing to have an adeqate present for this lord..."
Helena wants to have this guy in a happy mood. :)
MTKnife snickers.
Helena gives Mikelle some last instructions on ettiquette.
Helena says "Just to make sure we don't see some spectacular botches. :)"
Mikelle seems to favour etiquette of the I've got a gun and you haven't, so be nice variety.
Helena says "You can always fall back on that. But once you've drawn your sword it's hard to put it away and be a charming lady again."
Mikelle says "I'm not in the first place. Don;t worry, I'll let you do most of the talking. I'm better at leading than charming."
Mikelle smiles
Mikelle smiles
MTKnife waits for you guys to decide
Helena says "So, I'd say lets try to be gentle - we can always hit him the way if he does not want to be charmed the way..."
Helena says "Well, lets go. :)"
Mikelle says "Sure."
Mikelle heads off.
Helena says "Well, we are on our way. :)"
MTKnife says "okay, you and a few of your grogs leave the vallye nad head up the mountain towards the castle"
Helena says "I made sure we don't look to rich. :)"
MTKnife says "heh"
MTKnife says "okay, after an hour or two of walking you reach the castle and head up to the gates."
Helena says "Guards?"
MTKnife says "of course!"
Helena grins.
MTKnife says "what kind of a castle do you think this is?"
The guard says, "Who goes here?"
Helena says "We are Mikelle of House Tytalus and Helena Guenos down from the valley. Please announce us to Lord Ulrik."
MTKnife says "okay, the guard nods and allows you to pass."
Helena enters.
Mikelle whispers "we are only telling the Lord who we really are, not everyone, just thought I'd make that clear"
MTKnife says "you cros sthe courtyard and are admitted into the ante-room of the manor house, where you're left waiting for some time."
Mikelle enters, looking around at the fortifications with an appraing glare
that's appriaing
DOH, that's appraising
third time lucky
Helena says "OOC: I must have missunderstood that, sorry."
MTKnife says "what did you not undestand?"
MTKnife says "oh..no, no problem"
Mikelle whispers "No problem"
Helena says "The part about who should know the names."
MTKnife says "the castle is an enclosure, walls around a few buildings"
Helena says "OOC: Do they look wealthy?"
MTKnife says "well it's not really a trade center, just a typical rural keep; the fortifcations though are substantial; even if the peopel aren't rich, they seem to have been here for a long time to build up such defenses"
Mikelle nods to herself approvingly. "They survive."
MTKnife says "okay, you're in the ante-room, waiting...."
Maria has arrived.
Helena casts a friendly smile at Maria.
Maria sashays in and smiles to you.
Helena says "May the Lord bless you, Maria. Nice to see you again."
Maria curtsies.
Maria says "So nice to see you again, as well."
Helena has waited for that and gives Maria an equally deep curtsey. (to show shes accounted for as being equal)
Mikelle nods to MAria
Mikelle says "Hello. It's good to see you again."
Maria says "Come, Lord Ulrik is waiting for us in the great hall."
Helena says "If you'd lead the way."
Maria leads you.
Helena follows anyway.
Mikelle follows, oblivious to all these petty social games, certain in her own superiority.
Maria leads you into an ancient hall, draped with tapestries depicting ancient battles.
MTKnife says "Long tables fill the hall, but Lord Ulrik sits at the place of honor at an evelated table at the far end.  Servants bustle back and forth, brining him food and writing impliments."
Mikelle we continue to follow Maria
Maria says "He stands as you approach."
Helena says "Well, I'll go to him, drop a curtsey (slightly deeper then before)."
Helena says "But this time I won't stay low!"
Lord Ulrik bows.  "Greetings, my ladies"
Mikelle curtsies.
Helena says "Mylord, may god bless you. I'ts a pleasure to meet you again."
Lord Ulrik says "And you as well, Helena"
Helena casts a shy smile at Lord Ulrik.
Lord Ulrik invites up to the high table, "Please, have a seat."
Helena will give Lord Ulrik a lot of shy hidden smiles during this....
Mikelle says "thankyou" and sits down."
Helena says "Is there a way to prevent sitting opposite of him? I'd like to have it a bit more... informal. :)"
Maria sits as well, followed by Lord Ulrik.
MTKnife says "no, they sit opposite you, with Maria oppositie Helena on Ulrik's right side, and Ulrik opposite Mikelle."
Helena looks at Lord Ulrik ignoreing Maria for the moment.
Maria clears her throat.
Maria says "You've come to us with some business?"
MTKnife says "Helena, make a Charm roll"
Helena says "Mylord, as you might have guessed we came to disspell your worries towards our buisness down in that dangerous valley surrounded by your land."
Helena rolls a die, it comes up... 7
Maria turns and smiles at Ulrik.
Maria rolls the die, which comes up a 1.
Maria rolls the die, which comes up a 1.
Maria rolls the die, which comes up a 3.
MTKnife says "Ulrik lets Maria do the talking."
Helena thinks . o O (SG-dice...)
MTKnife says "no, those were honest rolls!"
Helena says "I did not doubt that. :)"
Mikelle says "The dice know who is in charge :) Especially when I'm SGing and roll them behind my hand :)"
Maria says "With all due respect, dangerous or not, the valley is Lord Ulrik's, and he would like to know what you're doing there."
Mikelle looks pointedly at the servants and other people nearby, then leans back in her chair.
Helena says "Oh, noone doubts, they are legally your, mylord (cast another smile), but you can't say you had much use for this haunted place so far, can you?"
Helena says "OOC: The first part was directed at Lord Ulrik, the later at Maria. :)"
Helena says "But in fact, this might change now."
Maria says "While Lord Ulrik will allow that this is true, nonetheless if you find some use in the land, he is forced to speculate whther or not he might find it equally useful."
Helena says "Sure. Do you think mylord will find many people willing to live there? In fact there are only bandits hideing down there save from any legal charge. I doubt there are many people willing to make use of this forrest if not even mylords guards like going there to collect a handfull of outlaws."
Maria says "Perhaps we could resolve this vexing point by your telling us what you plan to do with the valley."
Mikelle allows her eyes to wander around the hall, marking all the people nearby.
Helena says "Well... in short word: We intend to live there and study it's nature."
Mikelle says "Perhaps we should discuss this in more detail in private."
Helena says "Though I expect Lady Mikelle here will be able to explain matters in more details."
Maria turns to Mikelle.  "Milady, we are in prviate."
Maria says "What of its nature do you plan to study?  It's a haunted forest--what is there to know?"
Maria turns to Mikelle again, "These are mere servants
Helena says "I doubt you call a couple of servants private. Especially YOU should know the difference. (cast nasty smile at Maria)"
Maria says ""None will overhear more than snipets of our words, and those that do will not relate them.""
Maria smiles, "Spoken as a true sister, Helena."
Mikelle says "Ah, well, if we cannot negotiate in appropriate circumstances we will just have to leave. A shame, I was expecting we could come to quite a pleasant accomodation."
Lord Ulrik raises his eyebrows.
Helena says (very quitely): After all this concerns you too, SISTER...
Maria smiles pleasantly.
Mikelle looks at Maria and Helena. She compresses her lips slightly.
Helena shrugs.
Maria nods at a nearby servant, who herds the others away.
Maria says "I say again, what is it about this valley that holds your attention?"
MTKnife says "no one left, at least not nearby"
Mikelle says "Excellent. I think it would be better if Helena were to explain."
Mikelle looks on, smiling.
Helena says "Well, to make it plain, this valley is not much of a danger to Lady Mikelle and her friends. (Damn thats intranslateable...) While other people might fear those inhabiting the valley, they have the power not only to protect themselfes there but also a few others like me. Besides that this valley seems to have some virtues that normal people have no use for. They however have..."
Helena thinks . o O (OOC: Shit... I hope you understand a word of that....)
Mikelle says "It's fine"
MTKnife nods
Helena says "OOC: I never thought trying to say nothing with lots of words was that hard in an foreign languange. :)"
MTKnife says "now you see what it's like to play Viola"
Helena grins - OOC.
Maria says "From whence do Lady Mikelle and her friends derive this power?  And what virtues do they hope to gain?"
Helena says "I fear to explain this in great detail is beyond my knowledge. I can assure you this power is neither of evil nor is it supposed to be directed against you."
Maria says "Lord Ulrik cannot help but fear that which has not been explained to him."
Mikelle says "We derive our power from study of the world and the elements within it. The valley contains several things which are of value to study."
Maria says "Such as?"
Mikelle says "Places which are strange. Different from normal. Haunted places. Hardly of value to you."
Maria says "Indeed.  All the more reason that your interest confuses Lord Ulrik."
Mikelle says "They are of value to us in our studies. That hardly seems confusing."
Maria says "Lady Mikelle, Lord Ulrik is an educated man.  He knows of no field of study in which tiny patch of woods in the mountains of the Crimea would hold especial interest."
Maria says "Unless you're students of the occult or some similarly accursed subject."
Mikelle says "No ordinary field of study. No. But ordinary study does not grant our kind of power."
Maria says "Power?  What kind of power?"
Mikelle smiles
Mikelle says "It varies. Now, I have answered your question about what we do, perhaps now we can settle this business?"
Maria smiles, "With all due respect my lady, you've raised far more questions than you've answered."
Mikelle says "Last time I looked you were the one raising the questions."
Maria blushes.  "The first question was raised by your presence
Maria says "All the others flow inevitably from that one.""
Lord Ulrik chuckles.
Helena shakes her head mildly and casts a smile at Lord Ulrik.
Mikelle says "It seems questions flow inevitably from your presence. If you wish to raise more I recommend you make them sufficiently specific that I can give you a straightforward answer."
Lord Ulrik smiles back.
Maria says "_My_ presence, Lady Mikelle?"
Mikelle says "Well, if you weren't here you wouldn't be asking me questions now would you? Go on, before this becomes even more tedious. We would not wish to bore Lord Ulrik."
Mikelle glances across at Ulrik.
Helena says "Mylord, I fear I have to appologize for these ...err... diplomats. I think you should hear a more straight forward answer to your question ."
Mikelle looks surprised and sits back
Maria laughs.  "Milady, if I weren't asking the questions doubtless whoever held my place would be doing so.
Lord Ulrik just smiles.
Mikelle says "Perhaps. Ask. Helena is right, we should be straightforward. I am a straightforward kind of person."
Maria smiles happily.
Helena says "In fact we've just tried to talk around facts that - especially Maria - knows very well. You might remember, her husband is one of those people asking to live down in this haunted valley. These people are of the only kind of people that have no reason to fear ghosts: Wizards. In fact I'm quite surprised that Maria did not dare to tell you that much. But be sure, they mean no harm to you. The simple want a place to live and study in peace. And this valley is a place where they are in noones way. (I'm trying to put all my rhetoric in that - that I don't have RL)"
Lord Ulrik takes a long look at Maria.
Maria smiles.
Maria pauses to think.
Helena says "I think you should know who you talk to. :)"
Helena casts a charming smile at Lord Ulrik.
Lord Ulrik smiles.
Helena says "So, to keep to the facts,... "
Mikelle grins, looking at Maria
Maria says "I believe that Lord Ulrik would like to know just what sort of "wizards" you are and what activities you inted to pursue in the valley."
Helena says "...what you have is a valley you have no use for, and a couple of bandits raiding yopu fields. What you will get is a secure valley and no more bandits hindeing there."
Mikelle says "Helena is right, but to answer your question, we are Hermetic wizards, and we intend to study."
Lord Ulrik looks reflective.
Lord Ulrik says "I would imagine that the Church frowns on such activities?"
Helena says "As I said before, these powers are no evil powers. No daemons and the like. I think, you should know that yourself, Maria. "
Mikelle says "now we have answered your questions which you knew the answers to already for Lord Ulrik's benefit, can we negotitate?"
Maria says "Yes, but I believe Lord Ulrik's concern is that, however pure your intentions, your presence might raise questions among the clergy."
Mikelle says "The Church does not act against us as long as we do not make our presence felt amongst it's flock. We ahve now intention of doing so."
Maria says "then how do you intend to interact with the...uh...'flock'?"
Helena says "Mylord, be assured, I would not take one step with these wizards if they were officially condemned by the church. Though I can't be sure that every local priests shares this oppinion, I never heard complaits about the Order of Hermes back in Constantinople."
Helena says "Well, in fact they hope NOT to interact with the flock at all - except for buying food and this kind of activities."
Maria says "Then how do you intend to support yourselves?"
Helena says "Well, that a difficult question we did not completely deside on yet. Since the land is of yo use to anyone else, we hope to earn enough from the little the land gives us, that we can buy what we can not grow ourselfes."
Maria says "So you hope to trade the products of the land?"
Helena says "for other food, yes."
Maria says "Well as the lord of the land, Lord Ulrik would naturally be entitled to tax any trade...."
Helena says "Though there is no way to predict if this is even enough to feed ourselfes.."
Maria says "Well if you all starve I suspect the question will be moot. :)"
Helena says "Noone did doubt that, Maria. Anyway if Mylord hopes to make much profite I can't promise anything at all now."
Lord Ulrik leans back.
Helena says "Though stoping the raides from that bandits from down there IS some kind of immediate profit."
Maria says "Well, I suppose the taxes on the land could be reduced were you to undertake to defend it without Lord Ulrik's assistance."
Helena says "I dont think we would need any assistance as long as noone lead hostile armies there on purpose. :)"
Helena says "OOC: What I was trying to say is: yes, we can defend ourselfes, but don't use it as a trap."
Maria says "That certainly reassures....Nonetheless it would be...unseemly were you not bound to pay taxes of some sort.  Certainly you wouldn't expect Lord Ulrik to treat you differently than others who hold his lands?"
Helena says "Well, noone did doubt mylords right to raise taxes on his land and noone doubts that the land we are talking about is legaly his. I'd only like to remind you of the state this land is in: buildings in ruins, forrest all over the place. The only thing that might give some profit this year are a couple of oranges and that's hardly enough to get ourselfes through this winter. It might take a while until we manage to make enough profit to be able to pay anything at all."
Maria says "Well, if Lord Ulrik were to assess taxes on the actual products of the land, that would solve the problem of your having to pay the taxes before you have the means to do so, would it not?"
Helena says "Well I prefere the idea of judgeing the profit made over the course of a year. We will have to spend quite some money in the first years to make sure we can run the place with profit - and a more or less predictable amount of taxes - for many years."
Maria says "'Profit' is a such a slippery concept.  I'm sure you'd prefer a basis for taxation that involves the most minimal possible intrusion into your affairs."
Helena says "Well, would you prefere the word income?"
Maria says "If you wish...but in any case a fixed portion of the products you export from the woods would be the easiest method of assessment"
Maria says "While it's not customary for a lord to tax goods traded within his own lands, at the same time it's customary for a lord to be entitled to some portion of all the goods produced on those lands."
Maria says "But if Lady Mikelle and her companions value their privacy, I would think that they would prefer a tax based only on those goods actually traded, so that Lord Ulrik's men need not monitor the woods to asses the value of all of its products."
Helena says "I have the strong feeling Lord Ulriks men would prefer that too. But yes, I agree there."
Helena says "It's all a question of numbers after all."
Maria says "Lord Ulrik proposes that you pay as taxes one tenth of all products traded beyond the bounds of the woods, in kind or, if you choose, in gold."
Helena says "OOC: what's the average amount out here?"
MTKnife says "probalyb about 10% of all goodds grown on a farm, etc.--which is more htan what you're paying, but he woudln't be getting income form that land without you"
Maria says "In exchange, you may hold all right and uses to the land in perpetuity, provided you also agree to undertake its defense against all enemies of Lord Ulrik."
Helena says "Dear Maria, I might agree this could be a hard but acceptable tax once the place really gives any profit at all. Right now we will have trouble to get ourselfes thruogh this winter."
Maria says "Certainly that's a concern.  But do you think Lord Ulrik would really want to see his land-holders starve?"
Maria says "You may certainly ask to have your taxes forgiven during difficult times."
Helena nods slowly.
Helena thinks . o O (Theres a trap in this honey tongue... WHERE?)
Maria smiles slightly.
Helena says "Lady Mikelle, what do you think about this issue of selfdefse? We did not talk about that before?"
Mikelle says "WE will of course defend ourselves against any of Lord Ulrik's enemies, freeing hiom from the necessity of protecting his source of tax revenues."
Maria smiles.
Mikelle says "Well Helena? It will be your responsibility to make sure we can turn a profit. What do you think to the proposal?"
Helena says "Well... There are a few points..."
MTKnife whispers "you and mikelle could ask to excuse yourslef ot confer"

... Helena and Mikelle discuss matters privately ...

Mikelle says "Just make a deal I want to go to sleep :)"
You paged Mikelle with 'The main problem I see is: these 10% apply to magical goods as well. And we have this snake (Maria) sitting in our nest so we won't be able to hide much'.
You paged Mikelle with 'I have to get this part out of the list somehow without making someone too suspicious.'.
Mikelle pages: Well, I don't plan on telling him about vis trades.
You paged Mikelle with 'This Vis might mean quite a lot of money - Maria will notice that sooner or later... So in any case we'd have to make sure she does not find out.'.
Mikelle pages: We said we were going to be striaghtforward, how about I just say we will pay as taxes one tenth of all the mundane products we will trade beyond the bounds of the woods either in kind or in gold, as we choose.
Helena says "Well, first I think 10 percent are really a bit to much provided that without us there would be no profit at all. second there is a legal problem: The Order does not allow any magical tradeing. We can by no means give any taxes on goods we are not allowed to trade with the mundane world. Let me give a different approach: Taxes will be paid for everything we sell to the mundane world. In this year we will pay no taxes since we don't expect to have any segnificant income more then what we need to survive the winter. Next year we will pay one percent, two the year after and so on to a maximum of 7 percent."
Mikelle says "10 sounds about right, and a sliding scale is tooo complex. I say we just agree to 10 but try and get that mundane  line in."
Helena says "Mikelle, please don't say that when Maria is present. :)"
Helena (IC) loves a good and hard bargain...
Mikelle says "It is agreed. We will pay as taxes one tenth of all the mundane products we will trade beyond the bounds of the woods either in kind or in gold, as we choose.'. In exchange we will be granted full rights to the land as long as we take resbonsibility for our own defence."
Mikelle says "No. We didn't say it to Maria (Tristan is too tired for Sarcasm)"

... They come back ...
... RL Tristan and Ulrich are _very_ tired and should have stoped playing for some time ...

Helena says "There are two major problems: First I think 10 percent are really a bit to much provided that without us there would be no profit at all. second there is a legal problem: The Order does not allow any magical tradeing. We can by no means give any taxes on goods we are not allowed to trade with the mundane world. Let me give a different approach: Taxes will be paid for everything we sell to the mundane world. In this year we will pay no taxes since we don't expect to have any segnificant income more then what we need to survive the winter. Next year we will pay one percent, two the year after and so on to a maximum of 7 percent."
Maria says "To address your first problem, I think that one tenth part is rather generous on Lord Ulrik's part, given that you're being required to pay taxes only on that which you export, rather than everything you produce.  As for a lower rate of taxation for the first few years, I'm not sure I understand the need for this:  as I said before, Lord Ulrik wouldn't let you starve, and would certainly forgive any taxes that would make your...um...activities unsustainable."
Helena waits for the answer to the second part.
Maria says "As for your second problem, Lord Ulrik certainly would not require you to violate the laws of your order--the provision that you may pay taxes in gold should meet that objection"
Mikelle says "Such things to be valued on what scale? Be reasonable. such magical items and goods as we produced can hardly be considered part of his so called right to the land."
Helena says "OOC: Did I understand that right, that she wants us to pay in gold if we sell Vis?"
MTKnife says "right"
Maria says "If I do not mistake you, Lady Mikelle, is not access to magical resources the primary attraction of the woods?"
Maria says "And would not any goods you produced be created from those resources?"
Helena says "You may have missunderstood me, Maria. We are not allowed to interfere with any mundane with magical means. This includes giving a mundane Lord any income from magical trading."
Mikelle says "But it would be impossible for them to be properly harvested without our knowledge. The produce of our talent is and must remain our own. That is not a point for negotiation."
Maria looks at Helena dubiously, putting evident effort into biting her lip.
Maria says "If your magical products must remain your own, then I'm sure you'll agree that by the same logic you're unable to negotiate with a mundane lord for any magical resources, and those resources must therefore remain _his_ own."
Mikelle says "What, so much his own that he has been busily harvesting them these past years. Such resources can be claimed and possessed only by those who have the skills to use them! And I hardly see your logic besides."
Maria says "To the contrary, use them or not, Lord Ulrik possesses those resources at the moment.  And you evidently wish to make an agreemnt wtih him for thier use, or you would not be here in this negotiation."
Mikelle says "We negotitate for the right to live on the land, in terms of the mundane buildings and people and trade that will support us. Our activities and our art are and must remain separate."
Maria says "If your activities are dependent on the resources taken from the mundane world, I hardly see how they can remain completely separate."
Mikelle says "And to claim to possess resources in a forest over which he has not been able to protect is dubious to say the least - if anyone possessed it before us it was the bandits."
Lord Ulrik narrows his eyes at Mikelle.
Mikelle says "Or do I wrongly recall you were quite worried about them before, Lord Ulrik?"
Lord Ulrik says ""Worry" is not precisely the word I would use, no."
Maria says "Perhaps we can reach a compromise?"
Maria says "Certainly, there are some items that, on the one hand, would be of little value to Lord Ulrik, and which your Order might forbid the trade of in any case."
Maria says "and at the same time it might be difficult to place a price in gold upon such items."
Maria says "Therefore Lord Ulrik proposes to overlook trade in any items which have no value in 'mundane' marketplaces"
Maria says "In exchange, he expects to receive his full tenth portion of all other products traded, beginning immeidately."
Mikelle says "Maria. What you do with knowledge from your husband is not good for us, and you know it. It could be said that by causing this conflict you endanger us, and it is your husband's fault that you can do so. Do you take my meaning?"
Maria says "Have I made use during this negotiation of any knowledge obtained from my husband?"
Maria says "It was _you_ who revealed that you were wizards, was it not?"
Maria says "I certainly told Lord Ulrik nothing of the kind."
Helena says "We noticed..."
Helena mumbles something about being loyal...
Mikelle says "And Lord Ulrik, we will willing pay you for the use of the land in terms of the mundane resources you or any other wcould extract, were there not better and more fruitful places for you to exploit. I would agree it is your rightful due. We will defend ourselves and leave you well alone. Should there be a supernatural threat we will aid you against it. But our art is our business. That is the only way. anything else has always lead to ruin in the past, and will again if it is allowed to happen here."
Helena says "OOC: overlook -> Does that mean he takes a close look - or does it mean he looks away."
MTKnife says "overlook, in this case, means that he looks the other way"
MTKnife says "a lot of times it means to look away in an informal manner, so you might want ot make sure that it's specificaly included in the agreement."
Maria says "In that case, Lady Mikelle, do you have any objections to my proposal?"
Mikelle says "Maria, you have used the knowledge, in the aid of Lord Ulrik. I do not accuse YOU of anything - you are merely using your skills in service to yuor Lord. However, the result of you knowing our bargaing position before the negotiation is as you see it here. And it is bad for us, and that places your husband in violation of our laws. For now I merely aSK YOU TO think on the conflict of interests."
Helena says "OOC: Well, could we get the whole thing down to parchment? My daughter will wake up in about 3 hours..."
Mikelle says "Which proposal was that?"
Maria says "I assure you, my lady, that I have not made more than incidental use of any knowledge that my husband has given me in confidence"
Maria says "A proposal that you pay one tenth part of all produce that has value in 'mundane' markets"
Helena says "10 percent, not include any magical trades, defend ourselfes."
Mikelle says "It does not matter. Results matter. The result is that you knew, and could not avoid knowing. I beleive I have made my point."
Maria glares at Mikelle.
Mikelle says "Value in mundane markets is such a loosly defined wording. Say merely mundane goods and leave it at that."
Maria says "I beg your pardon on one point, Helena"
Maria says "As you certainly know, even the peasants often trade in magic, such as charms, potions, and unique plants."
Maria says "And the distinction between these products and the more ordinary ones is often hazy at best."
Helena says "Be assured we wount call our oranges magical - though they might be. Selling potions however is not an option for us."
Maria says "Well, so long as you path one tenth of the value of anything you sell to mundanes--or could sell to mundanes--I think Lord Ulrik will be satisfied."
Lord Ulrik nods slightly.
Helena says "could sell to mundanes? This means to the prize mundanes would be willing to pay, I guess."
Mikelle says "Stop lpaying with words! Anything _could_ be sold to mundanes. say anything we trade with mundanes or anything clearly mundane if you must, but do not try to catch us with nonspecifics. "
Maria says "Anything that could be sold to mundanes without violating the laws of your order of course, Lady Mikelle"
Maria smiles.
Mikelle says "unfortunately those laws can hardly be written in the agreement, as you well know. The way you object to a clear and sensible wording concerns me."
Maria looks confused. "Why not?  Presumably these lawas are clear enoguh that you may act on them?  Is there some reason their text cannot be repeated in this agreement?"
Mikelle says "Why do you press this? You have not raised a single problem with my suggestion."
Maria says "Because, my lady, I agree that the distinction between what is and is not taxable must be a clear and simple one."
Mikelle says "and"
Maria says "Since magic pervades all things, in greater and lesser measures, the only clear distinction of which I'm aware is that which you yourself use."
Maria says "Do you know of some better wording?"
Mikelle says "What is this "magic pervades all things"? There are things which are magical, and things which are not. Say all that we trade with mundanes AND all that is mundane. What is wrong with that?"
Maria says "What is wrong, my lady, is that one of your fellows might think to sell...oh...wine to another member of your own order, and then claim that since the product in question was not traded to a mundane, you are not liable for taxes on it."
Mikelle says "But wine is mundane. What is your point?"
Maria says "Or perhaps you might sell special plants from the woods to a local wise-woman, and then claim that becaus she does magic, she is not mundane and therefore you are not iable for taxes on those."
Maria says "well what if this wine has some minor magical properties?"
Maria says "My point is, if an adequate definition of what may and may not be sold to the mundanes exist, codified and attested to by the many wise person of your order, who are we to write a new one?"
Mikelle says "IOf something is magical and is traded to a non-mundane, then it is not taxable. The same meaning. What, again is your problem?"
Maria says "Well, how many products of these woods are entirely devoid of all magical properties?"
Mikelle says "OOC I wasn't expecting this - a direct challenge. the Tytalus responds..."
Helena says "As I said before, the only product I am sure of right now are the oranges - and we are not going to call them magical."
Mikelle says "OOC Scott - well, is there minor magic in everything?"
Helena says "As for anything else: I can't comment on anything specific I don't know now."
MTKnife says "well probalby not in _everything_, but the the whole woods is at least a +3 aura, and parts of it, inclduign where the oragnes grow, are +5...and then tehr's hte matter of hte fearie wine which you hope to trade, and that comes from a regio and is pressed from animated grapes who walk to the vintner's house to deposit their fruits personally.  I think there's some magic there"
Helena says "OOC: What do you expect from oranges growing in a +5 Aura? :)"
Mikelle says "as I said, there are things that are magical, and these we would be loath totrade outside the order. There are things which are not, and though they may be of virtue this does not make them so."
Maria says "And therefore, since you can't know for sure now, it's best to agree on a definition beforehand, when heads are cool"
Helena says "OOC: Yes, THAT wine is definitly magical."
Mikelle says "besides which it would only be trades with other mages that would be concerned - such a minor amount. I assure you we have no intention of trying to cheat anyone - which is why your attitude worries me."
Maria says "Lady Mikelle, your suggestion that you owuld be loath to trade ceratin things outside the order suggest that you have to hand a usable way of distinghuing those things"
Maria says "And while I don't suspect you personally of trying to cheat Lord Ulrik, at the same time I would rather propose an agreement that leads netiher side with a temptation to exploit the other."
Mikelle says "Yes. So would I."
Maria says "And if you choose to make your payments in kind, in any case you could never pay taxes on any product that you would be prohibited form giving to mundanes, could you?"
Maria says "Perhaps it would help if you could convey precisely what sorts of items you can and cannot trade with mundanes."
Mikelle says "Very well. Anything imbued with permanent virtue is the best way I can put it to you. We can tell, as I said, what is and what is not."
Maria says "Then can we not agree that only items not imbued with permanent virtue may be taxed?"
Helena says "Maybe it would help if I tried to find a definition that suits both sides. I spend some time studying laws of different kinds and I'm sure I'll find a more specific definition with some time. I don't think it's a good idea to wast mylords time splitting word."
Mikelle says "But since only a magus can say, I somehow doubt you would accept on my word what is and what is not. You have said as much already."
Maria says "The lady has an excellent point."
Maria thinks.
Maria says "Perhaps this:"
Maria says "You will be liable for taxes of any product which you have sold to mundanes in the past."
Mikelle says "I would be delighted with that wording, though I suspect you do not mean what it does!"
Maria says "What do you mean, my lady?"
Mikelle says "After all we could hardly sell something twice!"
Maria says "Oh, I take your meaning. :)  No, I mean any product of a _sort_ you have sold before to mundanes."
Maria laughs.
Helena says "I think we generally agree on what should be taxed and what should not. I'll have to read part of mylords laws as well as some parts of the code to find a suitable definition. I can't do that within minutes. OOC: So could you please stop argueing, I'd like to get some sleep this night..."
Mikelle says "Well, I would be quite happy of the defintion of asomething magical as something of permanent virtue, if you would."
Maria says "Very well, it you wish to think on this, Lord Ulrik will be happy to let you do so."
Maria says "I think that Lord Ulrik would prefer the more easily verifiable definition"
Maria says "Oh, and one more item:  we must define the legal status of your settlement"
Maria says "Lord Ulrik proposes that he grant you a charter, as that given to towns."
Maria says "with the terms of the charter being those that we have been negotiating."
Mikelle says "Ah. So you did not even notice the oppurtunity to apologise. Very well, Lord Ulrik, I beleive you know were I stand on this matter. Now, I do not believe I wish to speak to someone with so little manners as to accuse someone of lying. If you will excuse me."
Mikelle stands and leaves.
Mikelle says "Helena is quite capable of resolving the other issues."
MTKnife says "that flew right over my head."
Mikelle says "Then you lack the skills to play MAria. I as much said you will not acceopt m,y word and she didn;t even bother to deny it."
Mikelle says "Mikelle was trying to win at Maria's game."
Maria says "Helena, please assure Lady Mikelle that, as I said a moment ago, I was not questioning her personal honesty."
Maria says "As I said before, I merely wanted to insure that no temptation exists."

... since everybody is too tired to get anything done the rest is supposed to be done by email ...